Author Topic: Underdog Scoring  (Read 171 times)

nelviv68

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Underdog Scoring
« on: March 17, 2021, 06:47:12 pm »
I have had this issue for some time, and as much as I read the tutorial/help files, I am not sure if it means what I think it means.  Here is my issue, in round 1 there is no issue with underdog scoring, you picked  #12 UCSB to beat #5 Creighton and it happens, you get 1 point for the round, plus the difference in seeding, in this case you would get 8 points for that game,1+ 7 (12-5). On the other game, you also picked an underdog, Ohio #13 to beat Virginia #4, but Virginia beats Ohio. In the 2nd round, you had also picked UCSB to beat Ohio, but instead, they play Virginia and beat them.  My question is: Do you also get underdog points in this game, even though you did not select UCSB as an underdog and they played Virginia instead of Ohio,  Or does it even matter since at the end of the day, an underdog (#12 UCSB) beat a favored team (#4 Virginia)?  Hopefully my question makes sense. and great job with the program, I just wish we had one for mobile/ipad devices instead of being locked to our computers

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Doug

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2021, 07:17:49 pm »
Your question makes sense... in the scenario you described you would not get underdog points for picking #12 UCSB to beat #13 Ohio since you didn't pick UCSB to win as an underdog.  You picked them as a favored team so no underdog points would be awarded. 

To get underdog points two things need to happen:

1) You need to pick the team to win as an underdog
AND
2) The team you picked to win needs to win as an underdog

In your example, #1 did not happen which is why no underdog points get awarded.

nelviv68

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2021, 08:59:15 pm »
Thank you.....so just for clarity, even though UCSB IS an underdog to Virginia (12 vs 4), since you did not pick them to beat Virginia but rather Ohio, you don't get the underdog points.  In essence you must select BOTH teams in a match up in order to get the points.

Again, thank you...this should clarify some of my participants' questions.

Doug

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2021, 10:44:55 pm »
Well not exactly no.  You don't need to pick both teams in the matchup.  So it doesn't matter who they play as long as you pick the winner as an underdog and they win as an underdog.  Hope that makes sense but let me know if you want to cover some more examples.

nelviv68

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2021, 02:15:38 am »
I hate having to go back and forth, but I just want to be 100% so there aren't any issues in my pool.  So in the previous example, UCSB plays Virginia, but player had selected UCSB to play Ohio, and UCSB does beat Virginia, does the player get the round points (2pts for 2nd round) AND underdog points of #12 seed beating a #4 which is 8 points additional, which would mean 10 points for that game.  I know you must be extremely busy and I do appreciate your time.  There is a reason I have been using this program for maybe 10 years or so...can't remember.  If you have other scenarios, please share with me.

Thank you,
Nelson

Philwojo

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2021, 07:28:53 am »
No they would not get the extra points in the scenario because of rule #2 Doug posted above.  They didn't play as an underdog, therefor you can't get points for that.  Just use Doug's 2 rules to test it, both rules must be met in order for the points to be awarded.

Phil
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Doug

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2021, 08:14:28 am »
And trust me when I say this... even if you are 100% sure how this works your players won't be and there will ALWAYS be confusion and disagreement over how it's scored.  If they are a person that would benefit by the rule being one way they'll argue it should be scored that way... if they are a person that would benefit from a different way of interpreting "underdog" they'll argue it should be scored a different way.  Then, inevitably, you'll be back asking how you can please both people and we'll tell you that you can't.  If you are using Underdog scoring with Seed Difference the disagreements will be worse as the Seed Difference is awarded based on the difference in the seeds of the teams the player picked.  Just one more thing to consider.

My suggestion is to NOT use underdog scoring in any scenario because of the issues it can cause.  If you want to reward people for picking upsets use one the Seed Scoring options.  I understand it may be too late now if you've already published your scoring rules though.  We'll help out as much we can though so let us know if you need further clarification.  There are also a number of examples in the Help file if you select Examples... on the Scoring screen in TT.
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pggolf

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2021, 04:06:21 pm »
Thanks for posting this. I had one of my players email the same thing. I replied to him that you must correctly pick the opponent to get the underdog points. I used USC as an example. I told him he did not get the underdog points for USC beating Kansas, because he had USC beating Eastern Washington. However, he called out that as being incorrect because another player got bonus points for Orel Roberts beating VA Tech, though VA Tech had already lost in the first round. Orel Roberts played Florida and beat them and the player was awarded 5 bonus points. But that does not add up because Florida is a 7 seed. 15 - 7 = 8.

Why did Orel Roberts get 5 bonus points for beating Florida when the player did not have them playing Florida but had them playing VA Tech??

pggolf

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2021, 04:14:31 pm »
Just to add. It looks like the system gave them the underdog points (5) for beating VA Tech, a 10 seed, though they did not play VA Tech.

Doug

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2021, 04:39:05 pm »
They are not required to pick the exact matchups.  There are only 2 conditions:

1) They need to pick the team to win as an underdog
AND
2) The team they picked to win needs to win as an underdog

Doug

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2021, 04:45:53 pm »
Also please note the earlier mention that "the Seed Difference is awarded based on the difference in the seeds of the teams the player picked." 

jfk81

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2021, 08:32:06 pm »
I am just getting to this now, and as a long time user of the software this seems like a behavior change. 

In my scenario the user picked LSU to beat Michigan, and then UCLA to beat LSU.   They were awarded 3 bonus points for the differential between UCLA and LSU even though LSU didn't advance. 

I'd love to have some configurable options for how this is handled, since my pool is called the upset special and I have been using seed differential scoring for years.

Any thoughts?

Doug

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Re: Underdog Scoring
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2021, 10:34:17 pm »
This is how the program has always scored underdog seed difference since it was first added to the program.  It's also well documented in the Help file with a description and samples and also warns you before you enable Underdog scoring to be sure you fully understand how the scoring will work.  This rewards the player based on the risk they took and not requiring them to pick the exact matchup to be rewarded for taking that risk. 

Here is the Help file description:
If you had selected Seed Difference scoring Jerry would be awarded points based on the difference in the seed numbers between the teams he actually picked (not the teams that played). So if Alabama beats Kentucky (#7 seed) Jerry would get 8 points (#15 seed - #7 seed = 8 points). If Alabama instead beats Arizona (#10 seed) Jerry would still get 8 points as it is the difference between the seed numbers of the teams Jerry picked to play.